SYM Owners Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Thoppa on January 30, 2021, 07:26:25 PM

Title: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Thoppa on January 30, 2021, 07:26:25 PM
Hi,

SYM have updated the design of the Joymax Z 300 to give it dual LED headlights and traction control. Behold, the Z+ which looks somewhat like the Kawasaki Ninja 400?

(http://www.sym-global.com/storage/system/products/SCOOTER/11-1-JOYMAXZ-PLUS/color/joymaxzplus800x700.png)
(http://www.sym-global.com/storage/system/products/SCOOTER/11-1-JOYMAXZ-PLUS/features/Headlight2.png)

It has a page here. http://www.sym-global.com/joymaxzplus300

I also saw the new (?) Cruisym α (alpha) which has LED lights, a new dash and traction control. Is this a slightly new version?

http://www.sym-global.com/scooter-10-product59

(http://www.sym-global.com/storage/system/products/SCOOTER/12-1-CRUiSYM-/features/content/LCDinstrument800600.png)

I have inserted SYM's images into this post but they don't seem to be displayed for some reason.



Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Tromper on January 31, 2021, 12:37:17 PM
Seeing the images just fine, but sadly SYM's offerings in the U.S. are pretty slim pickings compared to whatcha get in your neck of the woods.
True of all marques really, & likely for valid reasons.

https://www.sym-usa.com/models/index.html
Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Sylar on January 31, 2021, 12:37:57 PM
I saw that SYM had updated the Cruisym, now called an alpha, i think. It seems they have introduced an electronic dash panel and changed the halogen headlights to L.E.D. That was one of my niggles, having the speedo in Km instead of M.P.H. My Cruisym 300 will be three years old in May, so i will not be changing it just yet. I got my info from You Tube.
Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Thoppa on February 06, 2021, 01:57:14 AM
Seeing the images just fine, but sadly SYM's offerings in the U.S. are pretty slim pickings compared to whatcha get in your neck of the woods.
True of all marques really, & likely for valid reasons.

https://www.sym-usa.com/models/index.html

Aha, thanks for that feedback - it seems the images won't appear in Edge browser but are fine in Firefox.

I'm not sure we'll get the new models here either - there's already a different version of the Z available (in China and Japan it seems) but we only get the older one, and we don't get the HD models or Citycom either. The alternate Z has a radial mounted front brake caliper and a single LED headlight. It's strange as I thought this minor variant thing is more costly for the manufacturer - more parts, more inventory, etc.
Bulb light
(http://www.ibike.com.hk/02_market/oscar/2019/joymax_z_300i_6.jpg)
LED light
(https://gd1.alicdn.com/imgextra/i3/117666703/O1CN01zcl9Dz1zO1MufUTLk_!!117666703.jpg_400x400.jpg)
(https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i1/117666703/O1CN01vGY5hJ1zO1MuzS66i_!!117666703.jpg)
(https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i3/117666703/O1CN01uP2TIO1zO1MxY35n7_!!117666703.jpg)

Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Thoppa on February 06, 2021, 02:04:53 AM
I saw that SYM had updated the Cruisym, now called an alpha, i think. It seems they have introduced an electronic dash panel and changed the halogen headlights to L.E.D. That was one of my niggles, having the speedo in Km instead of M.P.H. My Cruisym 300 will be three years old in May, so i will not be changing it just yet. I got my info from You Tube.

Yes, a Cruisym alpha - dunno when this was updated - do you know?

The other change appears to be traction control so that will mean a small bump in the price I guess. I would like traction control but I wouldn't buy a new scooter to get it, especially not if mine was only 3 years old - save the money for when they release a significant model upgrade.

My Citycom is 2009 though, and looking fairly tatty. It seems to be doing okay at 73,000kms but top speed is now about 120kmh (GPS) when she was capable of a little over 130kmh before, and fuel economy is 10% less (usually 32kml but now 30kml) so I guess it is wearing out slowly. I told myself I'd run it until it died but I'm hankering after a new machine!
Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Sylar on February 06, 2021, 01:31:22 PM
I know the principles behind ABS but, how does Traction control work, Thoppa ?
Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Thoppa on February 06, 2021, 08:52:54 PM
I know the principles behind ABS but, how does Traction control work, Thoppa ?

Hi,

I'm not too sure how it works exactly - I always assumed an ABS/TCS system measured the rotational speeds of the front and rear to detect if the front or rear is either locking up (ABS) or the rear was spinning too fast (TCS). ABS would then modulate braking pressure by pulsing it and TCS would lower engine torque to reduce any difference between front and rear rotation speeds. Because scooters are usually cable-pull throttles and single-cylinder engines, I assume that engine torque is lowered by retarding the ignition - so ABS can be used to measure wheel speeds for the TCS, and TCS controls slip/spin by retarding ignition.
 
I even find it hard to write that clearly! I hope it makes sense :-)

Bosch say in their documentation about the 9.1 system (http://www.bosch.co.jp/tms2015/en/products/pdf/2WP_ProductDataSheet_ABS9_base_plus_EN_lowres_20151030.pdf) that their TCS can be added to their ABS, however, they are quite vague and don't give any technical details so I don't know for sure how it works - I assume it's much the same thing on the front and rear - a disc/sensor combo that create a large number of pulses every rotation - plus the TCS has to be integrated into the scooter's ignition (& fuel injection, etc?) systems so it can lower engine torque output - so I guess that is software added into the scooter's ECU but maybe it works some other way to control the engine. Does it need a ride-by-wire throttle or just a throttle position sensor or....? how about a torque sensor or calculation? I dunno. I guess that, as a basic system, it just needs to be able to lower the engine output until the rear wheel is turning at the same speed as the front but I don't know how it does it. Ideally, it would be able to know when the tire is experiencing high torque (gear, throttle, engine speed, wheel speed) and instantly detect a sudden spike suggesting a spinning rear is starting and cut it even before the spike had any real effect.
 
This is their ABS page : https://www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/en/products-and-services/two-wheeler-and-powersports/riding-safety-systems/motorcycle-abs/
and motorcycle stability control page: https://www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/en/products-and-services/two-wheeler-and-powersports/riding-safety-systems/motorcycle-stability-control/

I'm not the only one who has noticed how vague the manufacturers are about their technology. Here's an article on TCS that suggests different companies do it different-yet-similar ways and that no-one is giving up the recipe of their secret sauce. The article is a little out of date as many bikes now have six-axis inertia measurements so they have cornering abs, tcs, wheelie control, launch control, off-road and hooligan settings... you name it.  https://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/traction-control-explained-91272.html

I'm old enough to remember setting the points, and then how wonderful electronic ignition was... and I loved it when fuel injection became better than a carb.... but now there's bluetooth-enabled speedos with smartphone apps for I don't know what. I dislike this trend but a bike with a six-axis imu does sound like a good idea - not idiot proof exactly but maybe clumsy proof - something  I'd appreciate :-)
Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Sylar on February 07, 2021, 04:40:47 AM
All very technical. I also used to set points in the distributor when we had HT coils as well. I also run a Honda Silver wing 600 and the only time I have had breakdowns it has been electrical problems. All very well when everything is working okay but, a real problem when things go wrong. Machines of today are not meant for home maintainance, "take it to your dealer" is the mantra.
Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: fulham on February 08, 2021, 11:48:41 AM
Hi
rang motogb the uk importer and aked if there was any intention to bring the Z+ or cruisym alpha to the UK, they said no at the moment unless SYM agree an attractive price agreement
Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Thoppa on February 11, 2021, 07:39:46 PM
All very technical. I also used to set points in the distributor when we had HT coils as well. I also run a Honda Silver wing 600 and the only time I have had breakdowns it has been electrical problems. All very well when everything is working okay but, a real problem when things go wrong. Machines of today are not meant for home maintainance, "take it to your dealer" is the mantra.

Yeah, that barrier to maintenance and modification bothers me too - I really like to be able to work on a machine - needing to plug it in to a diagnostic computer is the big issue for me. 
Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Thoppa on February 11, 2021, 07:42:47 PM
Hi
rang motogb the uk importer and aked if there was any intention to bring the Z+ or cruisym alpha to the UK, they said no at the moment unless SYM agree an attractive price agreement

That's a shame - but at least it means they know the new models exist so they might be available at some point.

It's the lunar new year here (Year of the Ox) so most shops are shut for a holiday. They'll reopen late next week and then I'll ask the importer here.
Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Thoppa on June 05, 2021, 08:53:04 PM
Hi
rang motogb the uk importer and aked if there was any intention to bring the Z+ or cruisym alpha to the UK, they said no at the moment unless SYM agree an attractive price agreement

Hi

Good news - the Z+ is available for order on the MotoGB website - the 300 is 4999 +OTR - blue, white, silver, or black. How does that compare with the price of the Z?
https://www.symuk.co.uk/index.php/buy-online/2021-sym-joymax-z-300cc-893

The dealer here in HK still doesn't know, so I contacted SYM directly in Taiwan and they said last quarter this year, maybe first quarter next year. Um.
Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Syd on June 05, 2021, 09:25:03 PM
The US importer shows the Citycom, the Fiddle III, the Mio 50 and the Wolf. Been that way for some time.
Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Thoppa on June 05, 2021, 09:57:57 PM
Hi,

Has the US adopted Euro 5 standards or its own version of them? If not, then I guess it's likely it'll be the main market for the Euro 4 versions, while Europe gets all the refreshed Euro 5 models this year. Euro 5 came into effect for existing models 6 months ago I think, and the SYM range has been refreshed for this, as with many motorcycle companies, so Europe has been getting a load of refreshed versions of existing machines this year.
Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Syd on June 06, 2021, 05:52:15 PM
I have a feeling that one of Carter Bros. troubles -there were many - was that they carried most every model SYM made. After "the fire" and the change to Alliance, the lineup is limited and will stay that way, emissions or not.
Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Thoppa on June 07, 2021, 06:00:22 AM
Frustrating eh? But I don't think anywhere gets all the models on SYM's site? I know UK, Taiwan and China get a limited range too - I tried to get a Citycom in Taiwan on a trip a few years ago but it's export only. The Hong Kong importer here briefly had two 16"wheel models 12 years ago but they didn't sell well so they stopped importing them and refused to order a new one for me.

Hong Kong has the TL500, Cruisym 300, Joymax Z 300, Joyride 200, Jet 180 (cos it's made in China) and DRG 160. It seems 3 of these models have been refreshed/replaced - the TL500, Cruisym and Joymax Z - and the Z+ is now available in Europe but it's not available here. We don't have Euro5 and SYM said we won't get the Z+ for another 3 to 9 months - that sounded to me like they'll keep selling the Z until stocks are fully depleted. 

Since my Citycom is running well again tho, I don't mind the wait. I'd buy another CC if I could but I simply cannot get one. I've just come to accept it. One of the reasons I'll get the Z+ is that the Z is one of the models sold in China so I'll be able to get parts without getting ripped off by the importer here.
Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Syd on June 07, 2021, 02:03:13 PM
Another consideration is that many states, mine ( AZ ) included, do not test motorcycles or scooters for emissions. So we could get Euro 10 and wouldn't know the difference.
Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Thoppa on June 07, 2021, 05:58:21 PM
Yikes! Europe has annual emissions tests - my bike in the UK is an XT660R 2005 - it is one year too old to be allowed to go into London's ULEZ for free - 12.50 a day. The same bike in 2006 was certified Euro 3 so it doesn't have a fee. How dumb is that. https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ways-to-meet-the-standard

Hong Kong has only one measurement, when it is registered, and 2 wheelers are never tested again for anything, not even roadworthiness. However, the Police can simply notify riders that they think the machine does not look roadworthy and then we must get it tested.

In a way, you're lucky there's no testing, but it means, same as here, we'll be the last to get the new versions.
Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Syd on November 02, 2021, 09:33:46 PM
Thanks for reporting that post. It's gone, and so is the poster.
Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Thoppa on November 13, 2021, 10:25:39 PM
Purged :-)

Still no Joymax Z+ in Hong Kong. Can't even get the Z anymore either. I've sent the dealer a chase message saying I want to order. Yamaha X-Max is the alternative but they say it's a 3 month back order at least. Blummin COVID disrupting supply chains. When will this sodding virus go away! (never).
Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Thoppa on November 25, 2021, 06:59:51 PM
Well, well. Seems we might get a now Joyride 300 and/or Joyride 16 300, the latter having a larger 16" front wheel, both with a flat front deck, seemingly to replace the Joyride 200.

 https://www.ibike.hk/new-bike-express/joyride300/3373/

(https://www.ibike.hk/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/COVER-2.jpg)

Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Thoppa on November 26, 2021, 05:03:44 AM
And if you're wondering what the difference is between having a 120/70-15 and 110/70-16 front is.... well, next to nothing really. About 7mm higher seat height, a slightly skinnier looking front tire, and a tiny bit more weight distributed on the rear. I guess the scooters are identical except the wheel and tire. (https://scontent.fhkg11-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/260959565_129023846217239_8678817898178339422_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=tN7_h7t3YK0AX-4JiPp&_nc_ht=scontent.fhkg11-1.fna&oh=f5ff6e22b3ffdbb007c3c53efbe174dc&oe=61A57043)
Title: Re: New-ish SYM scooters?
Post by: Syd on November 30, 2021, 11:15:50 PM
Sure would be nice if the US got either one of those. A guy can dream, I guess. :)