Author Topic: HD200 Fuel leak  (Read 21849 times)

reynols

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HD200 Fuel leak
« on: August 30, 2009, 10:35:03 PM »
Hi.  I just found this board and am hoping someone can help me.  I'm a proud owner of a blue 2008 SYM HD200!  Purchased it brand new July 2008.   For the most part I am very happy with it, with one exception.  Several months after I purchased it, and about once a month sense then, it will leak about a pint of fuel onto my garage floor.  It seems like it only happens after I fill it up, but not always.  When I fill it up and take it for a ride, it seams just fine.  I will bring it home and park it in the garage and everything looks great.  But a couple hours later, I will smell the gas, and sure enough it will have dumped a bunch of fuel from what looks like a drain hole in the cover around the air filter.  I've opened up the cover, and it will have a pool of fuel in there that will spill out.  The air filter will be soaked with fuel.  I've tried and tried, but I cannot find where it is coming from.  The only thing I can see is it looks like it is coming from somewhere inside the air intake.  That is all I've been able to figure out.

I've taken my scooter to the shop where I've purchased it, twice, and they haven't found anything wrong--They look at me like I'm crazy, because I cannot duplicate the problem at will.  It only happens after 3 or 4 fill ups, so it is very inconsistent.  I don't think they believed me until I took pictures of the leak and showed it to them.

I love my scooter, but this fuel leak is driving me crazy.  I've searched on the web and haven't been able to find anything about HD 200's leaking fuel.  It took me a while before I even found this forum, and that was through someone else even.

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

As a little background, this is my first motorized 2 wheeled vehicle.  I'm not much mechanically inclined, but I'm not afraid to try and get my hands greasy.  I also live in the Phoenix, AZ area... and REALLY appreciate the invention of the Camelbak!!!  nothing like riding in 115 degree heat with a full faced helmet and an armored jacket on!  :-P

Thanks,
Scott Reynolds
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 11:48:54 PM by reynols »

slipster

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Re: HD200 Fuel leak
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2009, 06:41:28 AM »
It might be that when you fill your tank and the conditions are right a pressure pocket forms.  When the bike is moving and the fuel is moving around in the tank the air bubble is held in suspension.  When the bike is parked the bubble wants to escape out whatever passage it can find like the overflow hole or your carb.  Maybe if you either do not fill your tank so full of gas and / or stop when fueling every once and awhile to lean your bike a few times both ways hard with the gas cap off you can expel whatever air pocket that is being created by the internal plumbing of the scoot's fuel system.  Just an idea  ;)
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Barnone

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Re: HD200 Fuel leak
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2009, 08:35:07 AM »
Scott,

Sounds to me like the float in the HD200 carburetor is sticking or the needle valve is bad/dirty and allowing fuel to over flow. I can't imagine what filling up the bike with gas would have to do with it.

Anyway, this a dangerous situation and needs to be fixed. A spark and your scooter is on fire.

It has never happened to my 2008 HD200 but has happened to other bikes I have owned in the past.

Your dealer should not look at you as if you are crazy as this is not an unknown problem with carburetors on vehicles.

Tell them to look at page 4-8 of the HD200 service manual for info on fixing your scooter.

ootscoot

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Re: HD200 Fuel leak
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2009, 05:10:53 PM »
I had the same problem with my '08 HD200, but only when I over-filled the tank. I thought it might be the fuel petcock, so I replaced it, and quit filling the tank so full - so far no more gas in the airbox.
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reynols

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Re: HD200 Fuel leak
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2009, 09:00:57 PM »
Ok, it happened again.   Yesterday morning, I filled up the tank... or rather I put the nozzle all the way in thinking this would detect the fuel level sooner, and held the lever until it clicked off.   I then looked inside, as well as I could and it appeared to be fine, didn't look like it was overfilled.  Went to work, 14 miles.  Took the gas cap off again.  Nothing unusual.  After work, I checked it again.  No leaks on the ground and everything looked fine in the tank.  This was 8 hours after filling up.  I then went home, another 14 miles.  Again pulled off the gas cap and didn't see anything unusual.  Let the scooter sit for a couple minutes, and didn't see anything.  No hard stopping, no crazy maneuvers, nothing unusual, that I know of.

This time, after parking the scooter in the garage, I put a small bucket under the drain hole.  Came back a couple hours later, and there was about a couple cups of fuel in the bucket!

Today, I didn't take the scooter out.  But in the afternoon, I wheeled the scooter out of the garage, again pulled off the gas cap and other than there being a lot less fuel inside that I could see with a flashlight, nothing unusual.  I pulled off the covers over the air intake and took off the air filter.  It was all dry, as I suppose the fuel evaporated away.  But there was still traces of fuel inside the air intake itself.  With the air filter still off, I tried to start the scooter.  It took about a minute of cranking before it would start.  That ALWAYS happens after it spills fuel.  Any other time the are no problems starting the scooter.  After I got it started, I still had to work with it to keep it from stalling.  Several minutes later it finally settled down.  I put the air filter and the covers back on. 

I also poured the fuel back into the gas tank. 

The only time this happens is right after I fill up.  I don't *think* I'm over filling it... the fuel gage only goes ever so slightly above half way... I've never seen it any higher except when I received it from the dealer, and early on when I tried to get the fuel level up higher.  But the leaking problem didn't occur until many months later.  And even then it doesn't always happen when I fill up.  But when it does, it is exactly like what I described above.

I rarely put more than a gallon of fuel in, depending on how nervous I get when the needle is hovering above empty.  Yesterday I only put in 0.9 gallons.  I've yet to take it out and run it empty to see how far I really can go before it really is empty.  Hearing other owner's tales, it seems like the gauges being wildly off on scooters is the norm.

So now what?  BTW, please excuse my ignorance, like I said, I'm a newbie when it comes to motorized things on wheels, (I'm good at programming computers though... ;-)  but I'm willing to learn and give it a try.  What is a "fuel petcock"?   And how do I check it?  The carburetor is sticking?  needle valve?  I can pull off covers, but I'm not sure what I'm looking at.   :-p 

I did get the service manual downloaded from Carter Bro's.  I will start looking at it to familiarize myself.

Thank you!!
Scott Reynolds

Barnone

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Re: HD200 Fuel leak
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2009, 07:02:22 AM »
I always fuel my HD200 on the center stand and fill it all the way and have never had the leak that you describe.
 
Take a look at page 4-8 of your downloaded service manual. 

reynols

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Re: HD200 Fuel leak
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2009, 12:51:41 AM »
Ok, I pulled the cover and body panels off of my scooter.  I couldn't find anything that didn't look right, but I'm not sure what I'm looking at anyway.  I took a few photos and am hoping someone can help me out with what I was looking at:



What is #1 and #2?  I know they have something to do with the fuel as I was able to at least trace the hoses where they go.   :D



And what is #3?  It looks like the hose coming out of the top of it feeds into the air intake at #4.  #4 is also where I think all the fuel is coming from.  When I've taken off the air filter I could see traces of what looked like the source of the fuel leak inside the air intake.  There is also a hose that is coming from #1 that feeds into the air intake at #4.

What is #5, it has a hose coming out of it that goes up to #2.  The other hoses coming out of it go to the engine, and I'm pretty sure the thing at #6 is the fuel filter.



Something else I found that looked strange was the hose, #7.  It just dead ends where I circled it?!  It that on purpose?



Ok, in this one, while I was following Jeff's (Scootdawg forums) instructions to fix the springy kickstand, #9, I noticed #8, another hose that seems to go nowhere except straight down.  What is IT for?  Is that right, it just hanging there?  The other end of it is attached to the bottom of what ever the thing is that the air intake goes to (Is that the carb? :D ).

Whenever the fuel leaks, the engine is hard to start afterward and takes about a minute of cranking the engine before it will start.  Does that mean the carburetor is flooded?  Does that mean anything?

Thanks!!!

Scott Reynolds
 
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 12:54:31 AM by reynols »

Barnone

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Re: HD200 Fuel leak
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2009, 01:23:14 PM »
Scott,
So you are pretty sure that it only floods after a fill up?

I've never been into the bowels of the HD200 as deep as you are going.

Take a look at the HD200 parts manual in the "reserve tank and strainer ass'y" section and I think that you can identify the parts. I find that some of the parts names are strange due to the Chinese to English conversion. Why it is called the reserve tank is beyond me.   
Might want to print out the manual pages to identify the parts.   

I suspect the "auto cock comp." as being the problem. I've had problems with it on other bikes. It uses the engine vacuum to open to allow fuel to flow. A SWAG on my part but it might not be able to shut off when the tank is full? This is a tough problem to solve.   

Reading back I see that ootscoot  had a similar problem and replaced the petcock (auto cock cop.) and the problem has not happened again.
   

scosgt

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Re: HD200 Fuel leak
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2009, 05:41:57 PM »
#8 is the dump hose from the carb bowl. There should be a brass screw at the top of it. Make sure it is tight. yes, it is supposed to be a hose to nowhere.

The Fire Drake

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Re: HD200 Fuel leak
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2009, 12:13:01 PM »
I'll help out here and believe it or not, I've never taken off my side panels. Even with all the modifcations and upgrades I've done, the side panels have stayed put.

Picture circle 1--This one is insteresting since never had one. The hose from picture circle #2 that went to picture circle #1 went nowhere. This is most likely the charcoal canister and if you look closer you might see two hose nipples that go nowhere and are open. I did not have a charcoal canister on my 2008. Maybe someone goofed???

Picture circle 2-- This is a vapor separator and goes to the vacuum petcock (total left hose) and to the right it goes to the filler neck, number #1 and to the airbox if I remember right. The right one that goes below the picture either went to the ventilation valve or to the airbox.
Picture circle 3-- This is your crankcase ventilation valve and it attaches to the crankcase and your airbox (#7 is your oil/vapor catch tube and should be epmpited out every once and a while.)

Picture circle 4 is a vacuum/intake connector that should put fuel vapor back into the intake from the crankcase ventilation valve

Picture circle 5 is your fuel petcock and will have two fuel lines, a vacuum line from the carb and another hose going to the vapor separator #2 picture

Picture 6 is your fuel filter.

NOTE-- You missed the PAIR valve which connected to the exhaust and a few other vacuum hoses. The PAIR valve is below #3

Picture 7 is the crankcase blow by drain tube and should be plugged up. it may hold gas, water, oil or whatever is blow out of the engine.

Picture 8 is the drain tube on the carb and shouldn't drip anything at all.

It sounds to me that you have a bad crankcase breather valve. 90% of all that stuff you describe in your photos is emissions when I've,ahem, "lost" a long time ago.
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SYM HD200 30mm OKO CVK carb, MRP no-rev limit CDI, Bando hi-perf coil, Emgo 48mm free-flow filter, MRP GY6 Type 2 stainless steel exhaust & muffler, Full LED conversion & markers, ENM tach and 100 watt amp/speakers.
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The Fire Drake

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Re: HD200 Fuel leak
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2009, 01:06:33 PM »
I'm trying to remember the routing since I have yanked all that stuff, but I did forget something too. When your scooter is not running the "auto cock"(#5) which is your vacuum petcock should not allow any gas to go to the carb. If it does, then the carb will over fill and leak out  into the carb. Since the float inside the carb should be shut, it won't come out of the drain tube (#8) but may instead leak into the air filter itself and yes it will be a royal pain to start. The gas may also leak into vacuum lines which is a big big problem and may even let the gas enter the crankcase itself.

DRAIN YOUR OIL and smell it. If it is gassy smelling, then you have gas entering the crankcase nad you HAVE to fix that immediately. The gas may be entering through the crankcase ventilator and if it does, then your oil will be contaminated. I've been called a HD200 guru since I know this machine inside out, but I'm no guru, just a mechanic that knows a thing or two, maybe three   ::)

Here's what to do. look at pict #5 (your fuel valve) and get ready to test it. you'll need some spare vacuum/fuel tubing for this and some masking tape or paper and pen to mark the hoses so you don't forget where they go.

There are four hoses that go to your valve. 2 fuel lines, a vacuum supply and the tube that circulates spare fuel and vapor back to the tank (that #2 "thingy") Below I'll ID their purpose and location for you and what to do.

1) the main fuel line coming FROM the gas tank is the one connected to the fuel filter  and looks like a L/S shaped hose(#6)

2) The main fuel line going TO the carb is the bottom one directly opposite the gas inlet tube.

3) The one on the TOP is the vacuum supply hose that operates the petcock valve.

4) The one that shoots to the side and comes back up to the separator valve (#2) sends spare fuel/vapor back into the tank or the charcoal canister.

Now here's the test. Pull off the fuel line tah goes TO the carb, not from the gas tank, and attach some spare tubing to it and let it empty into a cup. Only very little gas should come out of it and it should stop. If it doesn't stop or maintains a small trickle/ drip, then replace it as that's your problem. You may have to do it a few times to check it out, but you shouldn't have to remove any panels to do so.

 If it doesn't leak, then with the kill switch in the NON running position, try to start it for a few seconds. You should see gas come out into the cup while you try to start it and it should stop when you stop cranking it. if it keeps coming out, then bingo, problem solved. You may also want to leave it overnight, but use something large enough to hold ALL the gas in your tank in case the valve is bad.

There's only one way the HD gets gas to anywhere and that's through that valve. The valve can be working normally, sticking open (dumps fuel) or not opening in which you starve for gas. At least testing this will rule in or out the valve so we can go further down the fuel delivery.

We'll get you up and running just like the others I've helped to fix their problems :)

Jeff
www.jeffs-hotsauces.com/firedrakehome.htm

SYM HD200 30mm OKO CVK carb, MRP no-rev limit CDI, Bando hi-perf coil, Emgo 48mm free-flow filter, MRP GY6 Type 2 stainless steel exhaust & muffler, Full LED conversion & markers, ENM tach and 100 watt amp/speakers.
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Rich B

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Re: HD200 Fuel leak
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2009, 08:24:13 PM »
Well I have a HD 200 and its a great ride..........Only.........I having the same trouble with a gas leak as Reynols. It has happend two times. The first time I tryed to start it and it felt like it was locked up. I removed the spark plug and gas shot out then I removed the filter and the compartment was full of gas. After cleaning everything up it started right up. That was about 300 or so miles ago it now has 700 miles and did it again. I filled up yesterday and rode for about 40 miles. Parked it on the center stand for about a hour went out to go for a ride, gas leaking out from the filter tube, same problem.
I sure hope someone out there is smart enough to figure this problem out. Dumb sentence Im sure there are many who can figure this one out.

Thanks for any help Rich B

Barnone

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Re: HD200 Fuel leak
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2009, 09:46:29 PM »
I'd replace the auto cock comp(vacuum petcock) with a new part. I believe (like others here) that valve is not shutting off and is leaking fuel.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 09:51:27 PM by Barnone »

Rich B

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Re: HD200 Fuel leak
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2009, 02:12:32 PM »
Thank you Bar-None Ill give carter Bros a call and see about getting a new valve. I sounds like that could be the problem.
Thanks again Rich

Barnone

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Re: HD200 Fuel leak
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2009, 09:38:06 AM »
Hopefully for me and others without the fuel leak problem,  SYM had a bad batch of vacuum controlled petcocks on the newer HD200s. Maybe this should be a mandatory recall for HD200 as the leak could fuel a spark and set the scooter on fire.

What year HD200 seems to have the problem?
How many miles on the problem bike?
It should be repaired under warranty so that Carter Bros and SYM knows about the problem.

Should the problem  be reported to the NHTSA?

I'd say report this problem to the NHTSA at 

 http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/recalls/

under "file a safety complaint"